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War Arrow |
"Surface" |
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Can't seem to do this in one shot so I'll have to post this then edit it. From http://beasthouse-lm.blogspot.com/
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War Arrow |
#1 | |||
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Oh I see. Can't edit my own posts. Thanks Yuku. You're really graet. Ah I see the problem. As War Arrow I can't reasonably expect to edit a post by
War Arrowfactionparadox whoever the FUCKING BUGGERING SHIT that is supposed to be.
Ahem. Continued: from above mentioned link... 143. ...To me, the modern world seems hopelessly, repellently bland: the art is bland, the music is bland, the language is bland... My past seems covered in textures and designs for which I still have no adequate words, and even under the skin of the present, I can see a layer of human experience that might take whole lifetimes to survey and catalogue. But then…I thought this was one of the most interesting points LM has made in ages, and certainly states his case a lot better than the 'novels are crap' thing a few months back. The thing that seems odd to me is that this thing he calls 'surface' (as good a term as any) is something I look for in a good novel, and I'd kind of assumed it was the same for most people. In respect of that, I'm not sure it's really fair to have a go at the limitations of language. The most evocative writers (those with 'surface' coming out of their ears whose novels can almost be considered a form of time travel) for me, are often those whose prose is the least cluttered: Bill Burroughs, Bukowski, DH Lawrence, Rudolfo Anaya. I'm not sure why this should be so but I'm guessing that an economy of a few well chosen words gives the reader just the right clues to fill in the detail with non-verbal elements - if that makes sense. I'm kind of getting at the less-is-more ideal. Take dance music for example, I'm no expert, but it seems the stuff that really works is the simplest, which leads to the falsehood that dance music is easy because it's simple, when actually simple is very, very hard to get right (much more so than complex), which is also (I would argue why (on a purely emotional level) The Ramones will always hit you harder than Gentle Giant. LM has moments of surface, though on that score, I don't think he compares so well to those above, or even to Phil Purser-Hallard and, to a greater extent, Will Self, both of whom write with a little more complexity and yet still convey a good sense of surface. The restrictions of language are obvious - as is apparent from comparison of English to any significantly different tongue - Nahuatl (for close to home example) comprises rather a lot that translates to English only by very indirect means (there's a verb somewhere which is 'to drop something causing a slapping sound' and I swear I'm not making that up) so it seems a bit of a non-starter to blame one's (apparent) failings on the language, or lack of it. I think LM just needs to develop a more balanced method of assessing his own writing (which he certainly seems to give short shrift at present) and hence a method of working around the potential shortcomings of the language, as (I think) is found in the writing of those named above. Not sure if this is likely to draw comment, but I'd be interested to hear any other thoughts on this. |
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doloras |
#2 | |||
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Kudos for being one of the few people in the universe who have heard of Gentle Giant. I loved their stuff to death ten years ago, then went off it. Just
started listening to it again, and was once more amazed by the incredible levels of musicianship. You're right that they're not a band which have a
huge emotional impact - except on a couple of the acoustic numbers like "A Reunion", etc. Part of it is the simplicity - one of the simplest pieces
they ever did was "I Lost My Head", which is IMHO their greatest song (as opposed to compositional achievement). But one of the
other factors was that their lyrics are crap. This might also be the reason why Yes and ELP's stuff didn't last, whereas Pink Floyd's did - the
70's prog bands generally underlooked the power of words and the power of having a talented wordsmith, rather than someone who could spout bullshit at the
drop of a hat, in the band. There's a reason why people still love Roger Waters but regard Peter Sinfield with embarrassed giggles.
So, yeah, when you add simplicity to good words you tap into a folk music tradition which stretches back far before the days of mass literacy. Another perfect example of this - "Lucretia, My Reflection" by the Sisters of Mercy; a single bass ostinato which repeats ad infinitum. Personally, the bit I found fascinating was Larry's description of the difference between people who are used to getting information from text alone and those who have grown up in multimedia immersion. However, his most important insight - for me - is that the increasing efficiency of marketing technology (both in demographic targeting and in sophisticated reinforcement of ideas by association) is leading to ever-increasing blandness, conformity and stasis in mass-media culture. This is of course what the "ghost point" in BotW is referring to. Of course, the problem with Larry's cultural analysis is that, since his only source of knowledge of the outside world is TV, he tends to overestimate how much the programming which he correctly identifies actually works. Despite what quacks like Baudrillard will tell you, ordinary people do understand the difference betweeen TV and their everyday reality, since the two often contradict each other. The Stacks - the site for
Faction Paradox fanfic and other fanworks
"Larry was with us in spirit" - Kate Orman
(for more of my messed up thoughts on culture, magick and revolutionary politics)
Last Edited By: doloras 16 July, 2007 1:10 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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War Arrow |
#3 | |||
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Hmmm. Someone tried to convert me to Gentle Giant having just successfully weened me onto Jethro Tull (whom I now rate highly, although to be fair, I was
already well disposed towards them on the strength of Witches Promise) and though I can appreciate GG, I just found them a little bit too elabourate and too
far removed from my normal 50 Cent shaped comfort zone - that's just my personal taste though, not a judgement of quality and musically speaking you
can't fault them for aiming high.
Anyway... Of course, the problem with Larry's cultural analysis is that, since his only source of knowledge of the outside world is TV, he tends to overestimate how much the programming which he correctly identifies actually works. Despite what quacks like Baudrillard will tell you, ordinary people do understand the difference betweeen TV and their everyday reality, since the two often contradict each other.That whole ghost point idea really got to me as well. In fact I spend a good few weeks obssessing over it. True about LM's non-involvement with the outside world, and though I think there's a lot of good points in his TV-as-culture thing, it's a lot more complicated than he seems to think. PS. I'm overgeneralising when I say 50 Cent shaped comfort zone. I seem to like most things, though prog and classical are very much Marmite genres to me - I love the stuff I love and just can't understand the stuff I don't and, though I've tried, the 'give it time and it'll grow on you' theory just doesn't seem to apply. |
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War Arrow |
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Whoops. Lucretia My Reflection - blindingly wonderful song and a perfect example of Brian Eno's "repetition is a form of change" maxim.
"For as long as the world shall endure, the honour and the glory of Mexico-Tenochtitlan must never be forgotten." - Chimalpahin Quautlehuanitzin |
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ushas the rani |
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'dance the ghost with me', one of my fave lines of any song
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