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felice |
Iraq |
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Since this forum isn't just for discussing the Evil Renegade and spinoffs... what do people think of the hanging of Saddam Hussein and his aides? How about Bush's plan to send twenty thousand more troops to Iraq?
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War Arrow |
Re: Iraq | #1 | ||
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Oh Jeez. I don't even know what I think, beyond having a vague idea that this is one of those situations where there's no rights, just wrongs, and moderately less crappy wrongs. The subject is almost too big for me to attach any particular value to my own (or many other) opinions on the matter. That said, these are my own personal conclusions so far:
1) Bush is a twat, and an unelected twat at that. I'd doubt it would be wise to leave him in charge of the contents of his own pants, let alone an economy the size of America. To borrow a phrase from Rowan Atkinson, I wouldn't trust him to sit the right way on a toilet. 2) Blair. See most points regarding Bush. And like Bush, he's in favour of (or at least supportive of) schooling which teaches that God created the world in seven days, contrary to every single existing piece of evidence. 3) Fundamentalist rulers such as those named above have a tendency to galvanise the opposition into something of an equally fundamentalist persuasion, or at least to galvanise already existing fundamentalist forces into a unified front. I deeply distrust these forms of government as I believe they are essentially driven towards achieving similarly oppresive ends, irrespective of whatever language that may be couched in. An atom bomb with peace signs painted onto it is still an atom bomb. 4) Therefore I'd suggest that Al Queda is pretty much a western invention, irrespective of the cultural heritage or aims of those presently defined by the term. 5) Not only do our rulers lie to us (the WMD excuse) but they seem to know that we know they lie to us, and do it anyway because the reality of any given situation has apparently ceased to hold the same currency as what that situation means to a small group of people in positions of power. 6) I really don't see how hanging Saddam Hussein has helped. 7) The bottom line is, I suppose, despite all of the above, what matters here is the quality of life for people in Iraq. All we're hearing is the odd report of unrest and things getting blown up. Those upon whom all this has a very direct impact would appear to have little say in the matter. All the talk and opinion is coming from Bush or Blair, neither of whom hold Iraqi passports. Any thoughts? |
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felice |
Re: Iraq | #2 | ||
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We appear to be largely in agreement. I do see how hanging Saddam has helped, though - it's gotten rid of him permanently so there's no longer any risk of him ever getting a fair trial and/or answering inconvenient questions about his former relationship with the US and western complicity in his crimes. I don't think the death penalty is ever justified, though this sets an interesting precedent for Bush & co who have been responsible for far more deaths. Not that I think Saddam was a nice guy; while his government was actually one of the better in the Middle East as far as secularity, education, and women's rights went, he _was_ an evil torturing murdering bastard who I won't be shedding any tears over. The quality of life for the Iraqis is indeed what really matters (if you discount the opportunity cost that the trillion or so dollars spent on the war represents), and unfortunately it appears to have gone down hill. It's a mordbidly impressive achievement that the US has been able to make most Iraqis look back on the good old days of Saddam and sanctions with longing. At least back then it was generally safe to walk the streets as long as you didn't express any "inappropriate" opinions, and there was electricity and water most of the time. Now, nobody is safe anywhere, the infrastructure is still a mess four years later, religious fundamentalism is on the rise (especially bad for women), and the country is descending in to civil war. Hundreds of thousands have been killed and millions more displaced. If Italy had ended up in such a mess, they probably would look back fondly on Mussolini.
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War Arrow |
Re: Iraq | #3 | ||
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By the way, I typed an 8 followed by a bracket in up there and it came out as a somewhat innapropriate smiley. How irritating.
An incisive analysis there, Felice, and I'm glad to feel somewhat better informed. You're right about the death sentence. If "punishment" was the issue, life imprisonment would have been a better choice, aside from which any Saddam nostalgia is now more likely, I would think, to take hold. Execution may even in the long term serve to turn him into a martyr - another victim of the West. The US attitude seems supremely arrogant, being one of "give these people a chance to see things our way, and they'll see things our way," which ignores the persistence of regional culture. I've been told many of the problems of Africa stem from attempts to superimpose vague ideas of democracy upon a long, long, long tribal tradition. That is, as soon as you're in power you do the right thing and give jobs to all your friends and no amount of pro-democracy evangelising from abroad is going to change that overnight so a bad system just gets worse. That seems to be what's happening here. |
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felice |
Re: Iraq | #4 | ||
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Yes, I hate graphical emoticons that replace typed text. What's wrong with good old ascii? 8(
Saddam was an unlikely prospect for a martyr, but that is a real possibility now. I can't decide if I think the US administration is being arrogant and extremely stupid, or evil and deceptive. Did the actually think they had a hope of the invasion of Iraq turning out well, or was it purely a matter of deliberately enriching the military industrial complex through pointless war and creating a replacement bogeyman for commies-under-the-bed? I don't know much about Africa, but it certainly seems plausible that crude western attempts at social engineering did more harm than good. That and exporting them modern weaponry. |
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War Arrow |
Re: Iraq | #5 | ||
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Hmmm. Is it just us two here or what?
I feel somewhat uncomfortable with making sweeping generalisations, particularly as America-bashing somehow feels a bit too easy. So just in case this is taken any other way, can I just say that I've got a lot of respect for at least some of the country's people. Most of my CDs are by US bands and artists, as is also true of my shelf groaning with dry archaeological texts. I like plenty of American authors (P.J.O'Rourke, Burroughs, Bukowski, Rollins) and film-makers, and the Americans I've come across here on the net have as one been great people (hello Sidious), but... Quote: The first option I guess, and it's worrying. These people genuinely seem to believe they're acting for the best and the rest of us will come around given time. It seems to be consistent with often quoted statistics about how many US citizens actually know that Germany is in Europe and so on. I just don't think they (the administration) have any idea of what this looks like to the rest of us, or the worrying way in which they're turning their country into one big global bogeyman. One of Jello Biafra's spoken word monologues (about US foreign policy) ends with something like "...and these people wonder why everybody hates us." Sadly but understandably, it seems true that, if not "everybody", then certainly plenty of people do hate the US. In Mexico, I usually get taken for an American businessman (I try to avoid dressing like a tourist) and when they find out I'm not the response in every single case has been overwhelming relief and a suddenly much warmer welcome followed usually by some anecdote of the general 'arrogance' (that exact word used on a number of occasions) of those from north of the border. I've also found myself in the middle of somewhat fiery anti-US demonstrations, which has been kind of alarming. I've sneaked away imagining I might be mistaken for a norteamericano. My point (if there is one) is that, as I say, I seriously doubt the US government realises what it's doing to its own country in terms of reputation (and has been doing for some time) and things seem to be escalating now. America has to stop acting like some huge thermo-nuclear teenager seeing how much it can get away with, because nothing is going to improve whilst it's operating by the same code that suggested Iraq was a good idea. By the way, I'm under no illusions that the UK government is something to be proud of (and certainly not in terms of Anglo-Mexican relations either). What's the story in NZ, Felice. Your country seems quite capable of staying out of trouble. What are you doing right? |
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doloras |
Re: | #6 | ||
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George Bush says: Iraqis should be grateful that he wrecked up their country and stole their oil.
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felice |
Re: Iraq | #7 | ||
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Grateful?!? That's appalling even by Bush standards.
True, it's not Americans in general that's the problem, it's just the ones in charge, and the 30% or so who vote for them (and perhaps the 40% who don't vote, and the other party for failing to provide anything worth voting for). There are plenty who are strenuously opposed to what their government is doing. I would hope most "anti-Americanism" is really "anti-Bush-administration-ism", but it's not surprising that some people condemn the whole country. Bush & co may give the impression of thinking they're acting for the best, and it may be true, but some people are doing very well out of this whole terrible mess. I'm reluctant to accept without question that they're just innocently taking advantage of the situation, rather than deliberately engineering it. Oh, our government is superb at spin. It manages to convince the public that it's opposed to the war without actually condemning it (the closest it's come was our PM saying it wouldn't have happened if Gore had been president, and she backed down from that very quickly when the US expressed its displeasure), while at the same time actively supporting the US military by participating in their ECHELON spy network and sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq. The armed troops in Iraq were nominally "engineers" doing "reconstruction" after the invasion was complete, which kept the NZ public happy, but a lot of their work was building fortifications, and it was a moral endorsement of the occupation and freed US troops for shooting Iraqis. Most recently they've disowned comments by a rogue minister comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We mostly stay out of trouble just by being too small. |
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War Arrow |
Re: Iraq | #8 | ||
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From link provided by Doloras:
Quote: That much is obvious. |
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