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THIS TOWN WILL NEVER LET US GO - Explanations?

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clockwork tin soldier	THIS TOWN WILL NEVER LET US GO - Explanations?		Lead	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 7 August, 2008 5:05 PM	Tags : None Hi all, Just caught up with this, 7 years late! I thought it very flawed in a lot of ways, but incredibly intriguing none-the-less. Did FP fandom ever come to any conclusions about what happened towards the end? Was the ship real, or not? Was the implication that any advanced culture would become a ship, or was a War-time power manipulating the situation? Was the ship the same thing as Tiffany's uber-self - and in that case, were Faction Paradox behind it? Who or what was Horror/The Racoon? Just posted a similar question over on OG, and got told that searching for a single-literal explanation might be missing the point... However, I kind of doubt that, considering how intricate and detailed Lawrence's plots tend to be.
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War Arrow		#1	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 710 7 August, 2008 7:48 PM	Flawed!? FLAWED!!!??? It's a masterpiece! Admittedly, I can't really help you with explanations of what the hell the end was about. http://www.theotherconquest.com/
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doloras		#2	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 444 7 August, 2008 7:55 PM	I found it pretty clear that the Ship was a timeship of the enemy of the Great Houses (we know from Toy Story that they have 'em). You must see all this in the context of the "Ghost Point" - that the early 21st century is a point of decision. Tiffany's uber-self is a "technological singularity" - a kind of quantum leap in human cultural evolution. Combined with enemy timeship tech, this would have the power to change humanity's destiny altogether and make humanity a real player in the War in Heaven, ten-million years early. And of course that's the last thing the House Military wants. So the plot of the book is a race between the House Military and their enemy* - via human proxies - to get to the Ship and either launch or cripple it. The Faction - the real Faction - I don't think are involved, although several petty "Faction Hollywood"-type organisations have their own schemes going on (the Executive, the terrorist group, etc). You must also understand all this in the context of the parallels with Nineteen Eighty-Four. In that book, it's suggested that the Big Brother regime fires rocketbombs at London itself to keep the population fearful and docile. This gives clues to House Military tactics during this part of the War. As to Horror/the Racoon, I think that's a bit of a red herring on Larry's part, much like the re-use of the names Bregman and Kortez (Korta) from Alien Bodies. ETA: I 100% agree with Cousin Mesoamerican on this issue - it's Larry's masterpiece, and indeed something of a handbook for cultural activism / techno-magick in the modern era. No wonder he hasn't done a novel since - I don't think he could top this. * I nearly forgot - we know from Alien Bodies that the Black Man is working for the Celestis. So those bastards are involved as well, apparently on the "crippling" side of the equation, much as we assume that if the real Faction were involved, they'd be on the "launching" side. The Stacks - the site for Faction Paradox fanfic and other fanworks "Larry was with us in spirit" - Kate Orman (for more of my messed up thoughts on culture, magick and revolutionary politics) Last Edited By: doloras 7 August, 2008 8:04 PM. Edited 2 times.
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clockwork tin soldier		#3	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 7 August, 2008 8:16 PM	Flawed!? FLAWED!!!??? It's a masterpiece! Seriously, I thought a lot of it was brilliant - the central players are particularly well drawn, the underlying ideas about culture are fascinating, and the present-tense omniscient narration is very striking. However, to my mind, only about 50% of the authorial asides are as interesting as they think they are, and the rest only serve to detract quite severly from the pacing. I got the impression that having decided on the minute-by-minute format, Lawrence simply arranged the limited number of actual events over the course of six hours and then haemorraged random ideas until it filled all the gaps! Don't get me wrong - I could read Lawrence's philisophical haemorraging all day - but I thought it could have done with a lot more editing for dramatic and thematic relevance.
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felice		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 427 7 August, 2008 8:57 PM godmother	My guess is that in the future, Horror (a real, ordinary person) is ridden by a corporate loa doing market research. Most likely it's future Inangela's idea to take advantage of this and make the loa project Horror back into the past; I can't imagine that being in the corporation's interest, or Horror coming up with the idea herself.
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clockwork tin soldier		#5	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 7 August, 2008 9:28 PM	doloras wrote: I found it pretty clear that the Ship was a timeship of the enemy of the Great Houses (we know from Toy Story that they have 'em). You must see all this in the context of the "Ghost Point" - that the early 21st century is a point of decision. Tiffany's uber-self is a "technological singularity" - a kind of quantum leap in human cultural evolution. Combined with enemy timeship tech, this would have the power to change humanity's destiny altogether and make humanity a real player in the War in Heaven, ten-million years early. And of course that's the last thing the House Military wants. Do you think it could be a possibility that it is the Enemy's technology that allows human cultural connections to take on a physical form? As wacky as Lawrence's universe is, I find the idea of it happening spontaneously a little silly! So the plot of the book is a race between the House Military and their enemy* - via human proxies - to get to the Ship and either launch or cripple it. The Faction - the real Faction - I don't think are involved, although several petty "Faction Hollywood"-type organisations have their own schemes going on (the Executive, the terrorist group, etc). ... we know from Alien Bodies that the Black Man is working for the Celestis. So those bastards are involved as well, apparently on the "crippling" side of the equation, much as we assume that if the real Faction were involved, they'd be on the "launching" side. So the Enemy are influencing Inangela in her attempt to free the ship via her ritual, and the Great Houses and the Celestis are influencing Valentine in his attempt to blow it up. Well that makes sense. What about Tiffany? Perhaps then the Executive are a real devision of Faction Paradox - they know that the Enemy is attempting to launch a ship made of culture, so they attempt highjack it for themselves by making Tiffany so significant to the culture that she becomes the pilot of the ship (hence the similarily between her insect-like uberform and the insect-like ship pilot). Presumably they fail when Tiffany disobeys them. You must also understand all this in the context of the parallels with Nineteen Eighty-Four. In that book, it's suggested that the Big Brother regime fires rocketbombs at London itself to keep the population fearful and docile. This gives clues to House Military tactics during this part of the War. So the bombing of This Town is an attempt by the Great Houses to keep its population docile? To what end?
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clockwork tin soldier		#6	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 7 August, 2008 9:33 PM	felice wrote: My guess is that in the future, Horror (a real, ordinary person) is ridden by a corporate loa doing market research. Most likely it's future Inangela's idea to take advantage of this and make the loa project Horror back into the past; I can't imagine that being in the corporation's interest, or Horror coming up with the idea herself. So, despite actually working for the Great Houses, Inangela and Horror get noticed by Faction Paradox after all. They are recruited, and Horror is sent back to help Inangela in her time of need. Coooool.
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doloras		#7	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 444 7 August, 2008 9:51 PM	So the bombing of This Town is an attempt by the Great Houses to keep its population docile? To what end? As I explained - to bring on the "Ghost Point" era, ten-million years of cultural stasis, to make sure that humanity will not become either a potent weapon in the hands of the enemy, or an independent threat to Great House hegemony over the Spiral Politic (in the same way that the post-humans are at the far end of the time continuum). And, yes, I think we have to accept that the evolution of a media-uberself happens "spontaneously" in a sufficiently advanced media culture - if you don't accept that technomagick like that can happen, then the entire history of the War in Heaven as a fight over culture and history makes no sense at all. It's certainly no sillier than timeships. The main reason why I don't think the Executive can be the real Faction is that they seem far too humourless and incompetent. I think that they're simply a conspiracy/marketing company who've knocked off Faction Hollywood rituals they don't really understand for the purpose of enriching themselves, and are as shocked as anyone when Tiffany's uberself goes independent. The Stacks - the site for Faction Paradox fanfic and other fanworks "Larry was with us in spirit" - Kate Orman (for more of my messed up thoughts on culture, magick and revolutionary politics)
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clockwork tin soldier		#8	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 7 August, 2008 10:28 PM	doloras wrote: So the bombing of This Town is an attempt by the Great Houses to keep its population docile? To what end? As I explained - to bring on the "Ghost Point" era, ten-million years of cultural stasis, to make sure that humanity will not become either a potent weapon in the hands of the enemy, or an independent threat to Great House hegemony over the Spiral Politic (in the same way that the post-humans are at the far end of the time continuum). What with the complexity of the Houses attempts to stymie the Remote's culture ('The New Young Gods Project'), the simple dropping of bombs looks a little too crude to be an attempt at the same sort of thing, doesn't it? Besides, the vacuous celebrity-obsessed culture depicted in THIS TOWN looks pretty stunted already. And, yes, I think we have to accept that the evolution of a media-uberself happens "spontaneously" in a sufficiently advanced media culture - if you don't accept that technomagick like that can happen, then the entire history of the War in Heaven as a fight over culture and history makes no sense at all. Why not? The conception of culture as a weapon is just as plausable and just as fascinating without any 'technomagick' elements. I've just found this quote from THIS TOWN which allows both possibilities: "Do they [the War-time Powers] seed worlds like ours with technology that lets Ships and towns to come into existence, or do we create them ourselves - inevitably - and then sit back as the War-time powers harvest them for their own uses?" The main reason why I don't think the Executive can be the real Faction is that they seem far too humourless and incompetent. I think that they're simply a conspiracy/marketing company who've knocked off Faction Hollywood rituals they don't really understand for the purpose of enriching themselves, and are as shocked as anyone when Tiffany's uberself goes independent. They're shocked when she goes independent, but they definately seem to know about the uberform - which Faction wannebes surely wouldn't?
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War Arrow		#9	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 710 8 August, 2008 3:28 PM	Cousin Mesoamerican! I made it! Just in furtherance of any mutual grooming that may or may not be going on here, I think Doloras' summary (third post down) is one of the most perceptive and concise assessments I've read regarding TTWNLUG, although keeping in mind that I struggled with the end due partially to a) Larry's well-developed sense of the ambiguous, and b) mind still reeling from the whole idea of a cultural ghost point, not least because it seems a worryingly accurate portrayal of what is actually happening. By the way, I kind of see The Executive as being a sort of media version of the Faction, a media recreation of what said media thinks the Faction is. When of course it is something else entirely. If the Faction are er... the Sex Pistols then the Executive are Busted... or (sorry about this everyone) Green Day (ugh... feel so unclean) at best. http://www.theotherconquest.com/
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ushas the rani		#10	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 495 8 August, 2008 4:06 PM	now I want to re-read it, I still don't get the last bit, it's all weird and contradictory at times, maybe it's my brain or the shape of my brain or I'm not intelligent enough or too intelligent and not nearly clever enough... it's the book demands a sequel to explain it all and that's why we should never get one because some things are best left unexplained... Become a Warrior
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doloras		#11	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 444 8 August, 2008 9:06 PM	mind still reeling from the whole idea of a cultural ghost point, not least because it seems a worryingly accurate portrayal of what is actually happening Eh, the big problem I have with the idea of the Ghost Point in the real world is the very point brought up by the Book of the War itself - that you couldn't really have a static culture over ten-million years (like the Great Houses are portrayed as being) without some serious outside interference. Things boom and bust in the real world, not plod on forever. I agree that global media culture is increasingly embodying the bland, commodified logic of mass-market commodity production, but Larry's pessimistic assumptions about what that means for human culture assume - to be blunt - that people are incapable of thinking thoughts they haven't seen on TV, and if that were true there would be no uprisings, strikes or revolutions. It also assumes that the system of global neo-liberal corporate wage-slavery on which it's based is some kind of eternal stable verity, which is not only the central ideological lie the system itself peddles, but transparently false in these days of credit crunches, housing crashes and resource wars. Things will change - but for good or for ill can't be determined in advance. In fact, I think Larry's underlying assumption - that early 60's paternalistic BBC culture is some kind of ideal - is nostalgia for a glory age which will never come again and wasn't so good in the first place, and quite frankly elitist and snobbish into the bargain. To paraphase Orwell - Larry has to realise that if there is hope, it lies in the chavs. I should also point out to Cousin Tin Soldier that - again, as stated in the Book of the War - early 21st century Earth is on the verge of culturally evolving in ways unknown and inconceivable to the Great Houses, and that's why (it's implied) the House Military brought about the "ghost point". The kind of media/culture quantum leap represented by Tiffany's überself is unknown in the rest of the Spiral Politic, sure, which is why it's such a threat. The House Military's goal is to make sure it can't disrupt their plans - by crippling the Ship and trapping Tiffany's überself inside it (however temporary that might be), which is a microcosm of what they've done to human culture altogether. The Stacks - the site for Faction Paradox fanfic and other fanworks "Larry was with us in spirit" - Kate Orman (for more of my messed up thoughts on culture, magick and revolutionary politics)
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clockwork tin soldier		#12	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 9 August, 2008 12:08 AM	doloras wrote: I should also point out to Cousin Tin Soldier that - again, as stated in the Book of the War - early 21st century Earth is on the verge of culturally evolving in ways unknown and inconceivable to the Great Houses, and that's why (it's implied) the House Military brought about the "ghost point". The kind of media/culture quantum leap represented by Tiffany's überself is unknown in the rest of the Spiral Politic, sure, which is why it's such a threat. The House Military's goal is to make sure it can't disrupt their plans - by crippling the Ship and trapping Tiffany's überself inside it (however temporary that might be), which is a microcosm of what they've done to human culture altogether. I know, I know, I heard you the first time! We're talking mainly about the 'Younger World Story' entry aren't we? And on the basis of that entry, I still think that the cultural leap humanity should have made at the Ghost Point is purely on the level of thought. Which is certainly not to diminish the concept; isn't it a far more relevant and frightening thought that a limit could be placed on our ability to concieve new ideas? For the Ghost Point to mark the moment when Britney Spears turns in giant space bug and then gets trodden on by the Great Houses just isn't as interesting. I think it's better to concieve of Tiffany's uberform as what happens when our media culture meets Enemy technology. Besides, given the mundanity of Tiffany as a cultural figure, I really can't believe that Lawrence is aligning her with his beautiful and rather tragic conception of what we could have been. And here's another idea, very probably flawed, but worth airing: are we SURE that the BOTW implies that the Great Houses caused the Ghost Point? That's certainly what I got from the 'Younger World Story' the first time I read it, but coming back to it now, I'm not so sure. What the entry actually says is that the only two races in the universe to have such bafflingly sterile cultures are post-Ghost Point Humanity and the Great Houses. It then goes on to mention that there are more suspicious similarities between the two cultures (possibly alluding to the bizarre coincidence mentioned elsewhere in the book that Earth and the Homeworld have the same length years) and that Great Houses appear in many ways like humanity's conception of Gods. Is the "obvious" conclusion therefore that Humanity will become the Great Houses? Hence "YOUNGER WORLD Story". After 2001, human cultural development is somehow corrupted and then continues to get more and more sterile as its technology gets more and more advanced ... and hey presto! The Great Houses don't stop humanity catching up with them - both species are one and the same and reached their peak in 2001.
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andrew orton		#13	[url]	[-]
cousin Posts: 144 10 August, 2008 9:05 PM	clockwork tin soldier wrote: And here's another idea, very probably flawed, but worth airing: are we SURE that the BOTW implies that the Great Houses caused the Ghost Point? That's certainly what I got from the 'Younger World Story' the first time I read it, but coming back to it now, I'm not so sure. What the entry actually says is that the only two races in the universe to have such bafflingly sterile cultures are post-Ghost Point Humanity and the Great Houses. It then goes on to mention that there are more suspicious similarities between the two cultures (possibly alluding to the bizarre coincidence mentioned elsewhere in the book that Earth and the Homeworld have the same length years) and that Great Houses appear in many ways like humanity's conception of Gods. Is the "obvious" conclusion therefore that Humanity will become the Great Houses? Hence "YOUNGER WORLD Story". After 2001, human cultural development is somehow corrupted and then continues to get more and more sterile as its technology gets more and more advanced ... and hey presto! The Great Houses don't stop humanity catching up with them - both species are one and the same and reached their peak in 2001. Personally, I think that's too simplistic a look at what the Younger World Story is saying. Certainly that reading is presented as a possibility in the text, but it's not the only reading, and it's far too obvious - I struggle to believe Miles could be that dull. The Ghost Point / Younger World Story revolves around the idea that humanity stops at the point where it should have become able to process 'entire universes of information' and become a 'post-organic superculture'. This is pretty much the beginnings of what we see in This Town Will Let Us Go - reading it as just Britney Spears becoming a space-insect is overly simplistic when what we are seeing on a wider scale is merely the beginning of humanity as a species reaching a point when its culture and media and combined information can overwhelm its physical existence. Tiffany Korta is merely the start of the change, and she had to be the start of the change given her position as a (collection of ) media-entities first and a person second. The rest of humanity would follow. This is supported by the fact that humanity's ghost point lasted for ten million years, which the Posthumanity entry tells us is when the Earth was destroyed and the Posthuman Hegemony arose - and thus became a new problem for the Great Houses, which is why the House Military stopped it happening earlier. Humans can't be the Great Houses if Earth is destroyed at the end of their quiet period and they then become something else, unless the Houses were what they would have become if things had gone differently, in which case, it seems unlikely anyone would ensure the ghost point occurred. What the Younger World Story suggests to me is nothing so crass as a Planet of the Apes-style 'so the Houseworld was Earth all the time!' ending. Rather than suggesting that Houses created humanity or that humanity would become the Houses, it actually seems like a post-modern reference to the Book itself. That the ghost point occurred at the point when humanity could imagine anything the Great Houses might produce, and that human culture has 'often been described as somehow more complex than House culture' suggests to me that the author is making use of the fact that the Houses and the Homeworld and the Book of the War are a piece of fiction created by a human at a particular point in time. There's nothing the Houses can do that humanity can't envisage, because humanity (i.e. Miles and his mates) has invented the Houses and everything they can do, for this book. Therefore human culture is more detailed and real and the Houses are 'large-scale projections of human cultural concerns'. The whole Younger World entry reads overtly as if it's suggesting the Houses somehow influenced humanity, while at the same time covertly implying that in fact, it might have been the other way round.
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doloras		#14	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 444 10 August, 2008 9:55 PM	andrew orton wrote: Rather than suggesting that Houses created humanity or that humanity would become the Houses, it actually seems like a post-modern reference to the Book itself. My sentiments exactly, which I expressed last year sometime in a thread that is probably still on this board. I agree with your speculations in great measure. The only thing that I would add is that Larry's essay on The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (in the re-released Dead Romance) is vital. It's pretty dense and elliptical, but it pretty much says that whichever culture achieves dominance in a given universe gets to determine the shape of the daughter universes that it will "bud". The implication seems to be that the "universes of information" given in the Younger World story will someday give birth to real universes. So the Great Houses are determined to make sure they get to decide what Universe 2.0 looks like, not humanity. Which also explains why they keep trying to gain control of the City of the Saved - the "back-up file" of humanity. My personal theory is that the enemy of the Great Houses is in fact a version of humanity that never hit the ghost point from another universe, so you see how that fits in with the above. The Stacks - the site for Faction Paradox fanfic and other fanworks "Larry was with us in spirit" - Kate Orman (for more of my messed up thoughts on culture, magick and revolutionary politics)
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ushas the rani		#15	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 495 11 August, 2008 9:57 AM	My latest theory is that the Enemy are the original dominant species of the universe and that the Great Houses travel back in time to the beginning of the universe and rewrite all of spacetime to their own design, making them the dominant lifeform of their spiral politic, however the Enemy found a way to survive and are trying to change history back to the original version... Become a Warrior
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mdg1		#16	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 381 11 August, 2008 2:43 PM	I operated under the theory for a while that the Enemy was (post)humanity from a timeline where they weren't crippled by Great House interference. In other words, it's not that the Younger Worlds were going to BECOME the Great Houses. They were going to REPLACE them. Best/Mario
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bthogg		#17	[url]	[-]
cousin Posts: 128 11 August, 2008 3:23 PM	I'm still operating under that theory, mdg1, though it is a bit of a Planet of the Apes, as Andrew put it ("the Enemy was humanity all along"). But then we're not supposed to care about the identity of the Enemy any more, are we? I reckon the Mount Usu Duel also ties into this and the Ghost Point stuff, with Cwej responsible for (another part of?) the stunting of humanity. All that "whose future have you decided to steal?" business. Which would make the whole War somewhat non-linear, if the Enemy only comes about because of actions taken by the Houses after it starts, but since when has that been a worry in the FPverse? (And to think I once saw the ghost point as a joke about the fact that the future in ER is always the time of making + tinfoil.)
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clockwork tin soldier		#18	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 11 August, 2008 6:45 PM	mdg1 wrote: I operated under the theory for a while that the Enemy was (post)humanity from a timeline where they weren't crippled by Great House interference. In other words, it's not that the Younger Worlds were going to BECOME the Great Houses. They were going to REPLACE them. Aaaah, okay. That works. If nothing else, it must be the "obvious" conclusion come to by those humans spreading the rumour.
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ushas the rani		#19	[url]	[-]
mother/father Posts: 495 13 August, 2008 3:40 PM	all the early Valentine stuff reminds me of the character of Frank Pierce (wonderfully underplayed by Nicholas Cage) in the film Bringing Out The Dead... Become a Warrior
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clockwork tin soldier		#20	[url]	[-]
little sister/brother Posts: 35 20 August, 2008 4:43 PM	andrew orton wrote: The Ghost Point / Younger World Story revolves around the idea that humanity stops at the point where it should have become able to process 'entire universes of information' and become a 'post-organic superculture'. This is pretty much the beginnings of what we see in This Town Will Let Us Go - reading it as just Britney Spears becoming a space-insect is overly simplistic when what we are seeing on a wider scale is merely the beginning of humanity as a species reaching a point when its culture and media and combined information can overwhelm its physical existence. Tiffany Korta is merely the start of the change, and she had to be the start of the change given her position as a (collection of ) media-entities first and a person second. The rest of humanity would follow. But what happens to Tiffany is not an example of an "unprecedented thought structure" is it? There's no ingenuity, originality or creativity associated with her Uber-form - its just a matter our media society making her, erm... really famous. doloras wrote: I agree with your speculations in great measure. The only thing that I would add is that Larry's essay on The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (in the re-released Dead Romance) is vital. It's pretty dense and elliptical, but it pretty much says that whichever culture achieves dominance in a given universe gets to determine the shape of the daughter universes that it will "bud". The implication seems to be that the "universes of information" given in the Younger World story will someday give birth to real universes. So the Great Houses are determined to make sure they get to decide what Universe 2.0 looks like, not humanity. Which also explains why they keep trying to gain control of the City of the Saved - the "back-up file" of humanity. I just read that essay. Those budding universes at the end of time are also mentioned in The Book Of The War aren't they? Except in the The Book one of the future powers has tampered with the buds so that they will grow into Leviathans. How this might tie in with your theory I've no idea, but hey - hurray for another level of maddening complexity!
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THIS TOWN WILL NEVER LET US GO - Explanations?

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